Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Foto, video, libri e articoli di corsa
Zedemel
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 16334
Iscritto il: mer 2 dic 2015, 19:41

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da Zedemel »

spiritolibero ha scritto: mar 21 ago 2018, 12:19 Sono d'accordo con Canova sulla questione generale allenamento, prestazioni e professionismo.

Sull'argomento doping lui ha ribadito le sue convinzioni. Ci sarebbe da aprire un dibattito a parte. Potrebbe essere parzialmente fondata la considerazione che gli agenti della Wada abbiano interesse a sopravvalutare gli effetti del doping al fine di dare maggiore risalto alla loro funzione.
ho seguito le sue numerose e infinite discussioni su Letsrun. Per lui se sei forte e arrivi ad una certa mole di allenamento, l'epo non servirebbe perché raggiungi già il tuo massimo sviluppo. E' anche vero che ultimamente ne son stati beccati anche di keniani forti, ma secondo lui sono persone che cercavano una scorciatoia per tornare rapidamente a buoni livelli. Tipo Kiprop a cui provò a dare qualche allenamento, ma sostanzialmente era pigro nel fare corse continuate ad un certo ritmo. Sugli steroidi invece pensa che per l'atleta di resistenza vadano a mettere su massa e quindi siano controproducenti .... io qui ho molti più dubbi perché si può metter su forza anche senza gonfiarsi eccessivamente.
Mutante sovrumano
Avatar utente
salvassa
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 7474
Iscritto il: gio 17 mar 2016, 20:50

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da salvassa »

Zedemel ha scritto: mar 21 ago 2018, 14:01 Sugli steroidi invece pensa che per l'atleta di resistenza vadano a mettere su massa e quindi siano controproducenti .... io qui ho molti più dubbi perché si può metter su forza anche senza gonfiarsi eccessivamente.
A meno che Canova (in pieno stile AF su facebook) non sappia verità che gli scienziati ignorano, la vedo dura mettere massa senza un bilancio energetico positivo :pesi:
PB: 5k 19'07 (passaggio test in pista 29/1/2022) 10k 38'34" (test in pista 29/1/2022) 21k 1h23'23" (Roma Ostia 06/03/2022) 42k 2h58.47 (Milano 2022)
Squat 145 Panca 100 Stacco 185
Zedemel
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 16334
Iscritto il: mer 2 dic 2015, 19:41

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da Zedemel »

salvassa ha scritto: mar 21 ago 2018, 14:05
Zedemel ha scritto: mar 21 ago 2018, 14:01 Sugli steroidi invece pensa che per l'atleta di resistenza vadano a mettere su massa e quindi siano controproducenti .... io qui ho molti più dubbi perché si può metter su forza anche senza gonfiarsi eccessivamente.
A meno che Canova (in pieno stile AF su facebook) non sappia verità che gli scienziati ignorano, la vedo dura mettere massa senza un bilancio energetico positivo :pesi:
diciamo che gli ormoni servono per la crescita di tante cose, per cui possono servire anche per un atleta di resistenza. Boh.
Ma tanto il suo assioma è che lui ha allenato primatisti mondiali come Shaheen che lui è sicuro siano pultiti per cui ritiene teoricamente ininfluente il doping nello sport di resistenza.
Quindi c'è da vedere che 1. sia lui in buona fede 2. dando per certo che sia in buona fede bisogna vedere cosa fanno gli atleti non in sua presenza.
Mutante sovrumano
Zedemel
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 16334
Iscritto il: mer 2 dic 2015, 19:41

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da Zedemel »

Riporto un interessante post di Canova:

I don't want to be involved in any argument concerning one single athlete (in any case, for me Sifan is completely clean), but I see that your idea about the effects of doping is based on wrong principles.

You, like many Others, look at a very wide range of an athlete as "suspicion" he/she can be doped. Nothing more wrong : if you believe in the effects of doping for enhancing the Aerobic level, the most suspicious athletes are the SPECIALISTS of one event only, because they need a high level of Aerobic Power and Lactic Threshold, but in their training there is NOTHING for raising these parameters.

With training, we can achieve these results with the continuous increase of volume at a speed of LT, enhancing the speed of Threshold that is the base for specific speeds (all over the Threshold) related to every distance.

The first improvement, in any result, depends on the improvement of speed and specific endurance maintaining the same INTERNAL LOAD. This is one of the effects of training : without changing the internal load (in other words, using the same level of effort), in a period of 3-5 months of training the most important parameter (specific speed endurance) become better and better, but the effort is Always at the same internal level.

I give you an example. We have an athlete able running 4' in 1500m. He doesn't have a wide range : PB of 1'55" in 800m, and of 8'30" in 3000m. In his training, the longest run never lasted longer than 1 hour, and the speed was 4' per km (so, 15 km of max extension). On track, he never went for some test longer than 400m, alternating speeds faster than the speed of the race (for example, 58") in very small quantity, and with long recovery (4 x 58" with 4'/5' recovery), and specific speed for 1500m (for example, 64") with a total volume of 3 times the distance of the event (for example, 14 x 64" recovering 2').

It's obvious that when the athlete is able to run 5 times 58" instead of 4 times only, with the same recovery, the athlete can have MORE specific endurance at that speed, and when is able to run 4 times in 57", instead of 58", with the same recovery, he increases his speed. The real problem is : What the athlete has to do for reaching these goals ? To continue to have in training 4 x 400 trying every session to run faster, and on the other side to try to tun in 64" trying in every session to have some test more ?

The secret is to ENHANCE the aerobic power, and the main type of training for doing this is CONTINUOUS RUN FAST (Tempo a little bit faster than the LT, something you call VO2 max training) and the use of LONG TESTS on track at speeds Always faster than the speed of the longest race he used (in this case, 3000m in 8'30" that means 1000m in 2'50").

When athletes work frequently in that direction, they improve the ability to LAST LONGER at a speed that was already comfortable for shortest distances. But in this way, they are also able to IMPROVE their speed endurance, and their speed (related at the short distance).

For example, I ask the athlete to run 10 x 400m in 64" with 1 minute recovery, and at the end he has a lactate of 11 mml.

In the next 3-4 weeks, I work with "Tempos" in 2 direction : the ability to run faster, training after training, at a speed near the one used in his PB of 3000m (for example, is the PB was 8'30", running at 3' per km 5 km the first time, and 6 km after some day, and 7 km before the end of the period), looking for the EXTENSION of some speed that was comfortable, and the ability to increase the AVERAGE SPEED of the long run (we spoke about one hour at 4' for 15 km), moving to 1 hr at 3'50", and then 1 hr at 3'45".

All these workouts can increase the endurance of the athlete at a speed SLOWER than the speed of their events, and the Internal Load at the end of the period is the same of one month before, when they were not able to run so fast for the same time.

So, 5 km in 15' one month before had the same impact on the body of 7 km in 21' after one month, and 15 km in one hour the same impact of 16 km now.

Now, we go on track repeating the same workout (10 x 400m in 64" with 1' recovery), and at the end we discover the level of lactate is only more 9 mml. So, I ask the athlete to reach the SAME INTERNAL LOAD he had the previous month, and the athlete can add other 3 times 400m in 64", reaching the quantity of 13 x 400 in 64" recovery 1 minute WITH THE SAME LEVEL OF EFFORT. So, it's clear the athlete had an improvement in the extension of his SPECIFIC SPEED ENDURANCE, and this is one of the reasons because the athletes in their career can, step by step, look at longer distances.

But now I ask the same athlete to reach again the same level of INTERNAL LOAD remaining with the volume of 10 x 400, using the same recovery of 1'. For reaching 11 mml after 10 x 400m, the speed of the tests becomes 62"/63" instead 64", SO THE ATHLETE CAN IMPROVE HIS SPEED TOO, and this is the reason because, working for increasing the SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, the athlete becomes also able to improve in his shortest distances.

When you see at a long period in the career of an athlete (of course, aerobically talented), using continuity with this system
produces in the years athe possibility of a wider range, from 1500m to HM.

In this picture, 800m anf Marathon are different events : in the first case, we need to have more strength and more training in the lactic area, in the second we need to change the way of fueling at the specific Marathon speed, "teaching" the muscle fibers to use more fatty acids and less glycogen at the specific speed.

For example, in 1971 the Italian Franco Arese bettered ALL the National Record : he started with 10000m in 28'27" on the first of May, than with 7'51" in 3000 winning in Budapest (4'04" + 3'47") after 2 weeks, then 13'40" in 5000m in June, than 3'36"3 in 1500m the first of July in Milan beated by Marty Liquori (3'36", at the end of the season were the 2 best times in the World), after won European Championships in 3'38"3 beating Szordykowski and Brendan Foster, after bettered for two times the NR of 800m in August (1'47"3 and 1'47"1), in late September bettered the NR of 1000m in 2'16"9, and on 31st December won the Rome Marathon in 2h24'.

The European Champion of 10000m in Helsinki 1971 was Juha Vaatainen, who had a PB of 10.8 in 100m and was a specialist of 800m till two years before. Rod Dixon, one of the great athletes from New Zealand (3'33" in 1500m), never ran a 10000m in his life, but won in the second part of his career NY Marathon in 2:08:59 in 1983.

So, a wide range is symptom of TRAINING, not of doping, while a small range can be more suspicious, because the athletes who needs to have a high level of Aerobic Power but don't work in that direction, many times can have the temptation to use EPO for reaching the same level of Aerobic Power.

For talented athletes in aerobic direction, the extension of the volume of the intensity is the key for their improvement, and this what we used to do 40-50 years ago. Coaches who had the courage to go back to the past (of course with more intensity) are the one able to build athletes with wide range of performance, and for doing this don't need any blood doping. If the athletes use some illegal supplement, this is not connected with blood doping, but with something else.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read ... 48#9636588
Mutante sovrumano
chippz
Moderatore
Moderatore
Messaggi: 17337
Iscritto il: mer 11 feb 2015, 17:52

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da chippz »

Molto interessante. Concetti comunque risaputi, ma spiegati in maniera sempre interessante.
Gym: squat 110k / panca 70k / stacco 145k
Run: 10k 37':40" / 3k 10':22" / 1,5k 4':44" / 0,8k 2':16" / 0,4k 1':00"
Watt: 20' 318 / 10' 344 / 5' 381 / 1' 549 / max 1052
Avatar utente
disti
Top Runner
Top Runner
Messaggi: 5695
Iscritto il: dom 8 mar 2015, 19:45

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da disti »

Interessante. Però per quanto riguarda la Hassan sarebbe interessante sapere come ha fatto a migliorare così tanto nell'ultimo anno sopratutto nei finali di gara, ricordo che l'anno scorso le prendeva sempre all'ultimo giro
1km: 3'12" - 23/07/2019
1.5km: 4'59" - 02/10/2020
3km: 10'35" - 01/08/2020
5km: 18'28" - 28/08/2020
10km strada: 37'32" - 16/02/2020
HM: 1h22m51s - 03/11/2019
M: 2h55m09s - 20/10/2019
https://www.strava.com/athletes/dario84
Avatar utente
L'Appiedato
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 6005
Iscritto il: dom 8 mar 2015, 13:56

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da L'Appiedato »

Grazie Zed per la condivisione.
Ho un sogno: Renato Canova utente di forumcorsa....ma non succederà mai
" personaggio occulto, un massone, un beato paolo" (cit. Lucaliffo)
http://appiedato.blogspot.it/
Zedemel
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 16334
Iscritto il: mer 2 dic 2015, 19:41

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da Zedemel »

Of course an athlete can be "nowhere near a current high level" when his previous training were more poor, in both the direction of volume and intensity.

On 4th December 2011, I was in 's-Heerenberg together with Abel Kirui (winner of WCh in the Marathon) for a competition of 15 km on road. The women started several minutes before men, and I had the opportunity to see the finish of their race before the arrival of Leonard Komon, winner in the men race.

In spite of her position (number 5 only) I was impressed a lot by a very Young girl, very thin but with Amazing technical action, who ran 53'57". Nothing of particular, but few hours later I met again that girl, together with one Ethiopian man who at that time followed her, in Nijmegen, in the building of Global Communication.

The "coach" asked me to help the girl with a basic program, since she trained two times per week only, and the longest distance in training was 8 km, not very fast. I was surprised when she told me she wanted to run 800m and 1500m, because really I saw in her action great talent for long distances, and I was still more surprised when discovered she already had PB of
4'20" in 1500m, one month only after starting training, and without any kind of specific workouts.

That Young girl was Sifan Hassan, and for 6 years had focus in 800 and 1500m, also if already in 2013 was able to demonstrate big talent in longer distances, running 8'32" in 3000m.

It's true that the nature of modern track is that it has increasingly lent itself to specialisation in both middle distance and long distance. Most of the top 800m runners specialise in that distance, similarly the 1500m, and even in the 5 and 10k we are tending to see specialists.

But it's not true that is because each of those events have their own peculiar demands and it is very difficult for a top athlete to be equally good over a wide range : the real reason because the most part of athletes have, today, a very "specialized" range, is not technical, but economical.

I give you some example : there was a period when the appearance of Shaheen for steeple was between 40,000 and 60,000 USD, while if wanted to run 5000m the offer was 2,000 USD. Same thing with Wilson Kipketer at the end of the last millenium : 20,000 - 30,000 USD for every 800m, and ZERO for 1500m.

I'm sure that Wilson had the possibility to run well under 3'30" in 1500m, event he never tried, and I'm also sure El Guerrouj could run 1'43" in 800m, other event he never ran.

When you speak about the PB of Steve Ovett in HM (around 65'), you speak about an event that many years ago never was run, opposite of today, when there are good HM almost every week. And now, when we look at 27' in 10000m, thinking it's a "phenomenal" performance, it's because we lost the memory of the real difficulty of the race, and 27' is a time already achieved by 65 athletes in the World.

The fact that the athletes were not stimulated to run some long distance, if "specialists" of 1500m, or to run 1500m if specialists of 10000m, provoked a reduction of the range of training, limiting the possibility of increase the Aerobic Power with proper training, and this not only under physiological point of view, but especially under the mental side, making the current athletes less "mentally tough" compared with the athletes of 40 years ago.

Who knows the improvement of some side of the training of today, but doesn't know the value of what years ago was done, and today is considered "obsolete", never can be a good coach for long distances, that base a great part of the success in the mental strength.

When in UK, during the last years of the old millenium, physiologists put in the minds of new coaches that the volume had to be reduced looking at a higher percentage of specific intensity, the performances started to decrease in incredible way : when in 1980-1988 there were several athletes under or around 3'30" in 1500m (Coe, Cram, Ovett, Robson, Elliot, Moorcroft and Others), at the beginning of 2000 the best was Baddley running 3'37". When in 1980 -90 there were David Bedford, Eamonn Martin, Nick Rose, Tony Simmons, till Jon Brown in 1998, at the beginning of 2000 nobody was more able to run under 28'. And when UK had great Marathon runners also 50 years ago, like Ron Hill, Ian Thompson, Spedding, in 2003 the best athlete was not able running faster than Paula Radcliffe (2:15:25).

The current trend of improvement in every distance, in Europe but especially US, is strictly connected with a revaluation of volume and mileage, with the difference, compared with 40 years ago, that the intensity is now very much higher.

So, don't make confusion between a system with little training and a modern training system, with all the physiotherapic assistance and the economical advantages that athletes can have today : the improvement of training is the base, while you look at doping only for justifying every best performance. And this is not a good way to look at athletics
Mutante sovrumano
Zedemel
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 16334
Iscritto il: mer 2 dic 2015, 19:41

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da Zedemel »

Fondamentalmente ribadisce l'importanza della corsa continua e veloce, non sembra un grande fan delle ripetute anche se poi le fa comunque fare.
Mutante sovrumano
Avatar utente
L'Appiedato
Elite
Elite
Messaggi: 6005
Iscritto il: dom 8 mar 2015, 13:56

Re: Renato Canova e l'allenamento per la maratona

Messaggio da L'Appiedato »

Sí sembra quasi che le ripetute siano solo un test per vedere se il lavoro svolto nelle tempo run è stato proficuo
" personaggio occulto, un massone, un beato paolo" (cit. Lucaliffo)
http://appiedato.blogspot.it/